Upset at VW for your Diesel car?

"FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem" (fuelstratifiedinjection)
08/16/2016 at 04:16 • Filed to: None

I’ll just leave this here.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/16/business/international/vw-volkswagen-europe-us-lawsuit-settlement.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=curja....&_r=0&referer=

DISCUSSION (42)

Nauraushaun > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:23

For the first time ever, America's over regulation of cars sold there has benefitted its citizens

Birddog > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:24

$20,000? Sumbitch.That..

Oh..

Poor Yurpeeons.

Cé hé sin > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:25

Bear in mind that rest of the world VW owners haven’t lost anything as their cars remain saleable and values haven’t (so far as I know) fallen. Why would they be compensated?

CRider > Nauraushaun
08/16/2016 at 04:27

Kinja'd!!!

Yeah, fuck our air. We need to cut back on some of these impossible standards that nobody else had a problem meeting! #MakeAmericaSmogAgain

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Cé hé sin
08/16/2016 at 04:33

My thoughts as well but why should American owners be? Besides from the significant drop in value.

duurtlang > Cé hé sin
08/16/2016 at 04:34

Exactly. There’s zero reason to compensate VW owners in Europe. They didn’t suffer any losses. VW should compensate societies though, imho. Let them pay a very hefty fine correlated to the amount of cheaty cars per country.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Birddog
08/16/2016 at 04:34

Not that poor considering the value and sales haven’t dropped a bit. That and diesel is still tax subsidised thus cheaper.

Svend > Cé hé sin
08/16/2016 at 04:35

And our governments aren’t penalising or going to penalise the owners in any way or as the U.K. government anyway, nor will they make it mandatory that we have our cars ‘fixed’ if the owner doesn’t wish it.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Nauraushaun
08/16/2016 at 04:38

I think it has protected them in many cases but what I don’t get is why there hasn’t been a unification of regulations yet. I know that that’s part of TTIP but many people oppose it (me included).

Cé hé sin > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:40

Because of the drop in value!

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > CRider
08/16/2016 at 04:41

Diesel engines have been improved over the last two decades. One factor for nox emissions are direct injected gasoline engines, Mercedes Benz will introduce particle filters in the upcoming S-Class Modelpflege (facelift).

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Cé hé sin
08/16/2016 at 04:42

That sucks for owners as well as dealerships.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Svend
08/16/2016 at 04:46

Wait, it’s not mandatory? Your car will lose it’s type approval in Germany if you won’t get the fix.

CRider > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:48

They’ve been improved with particulate filters and urea injection systems, which VW conveniently decided to not use. Funny how that works, huh?

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > duurtlang
08/16/2016 at 04:49

Resell values won’t drop but diesel consumption will rise slightly. Although I think that’s not reason enough for €5.000,- compesation. Not until the tax subsidies for diesel will end.

Svend > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 04:51

In the U.K. if the owner does not wish to have the ‘fix’ done then they don’t have to have it done. The car will simply be tested as it always has been and nor will the owner be penalised. All good.

Mine is a TSi but at least three people I know have cars that are affected and they are going to see how other cars are affected with the fix to see if they wish to do so.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > CRider
08/16/2016 at 04:55

It’s costly, that’s a weak excuse but sadly that’s what companies do for profit. I guess the EU set their focus too much on co2 and diesel particles but not on nox, at least that’s what I’ve noticed over the years.

TheHondaBro > CRider
08/16/2016 at 04:58

To be fair, stricter regulations have cleaned up Manhattan drastically.

Kinja'd!!!

LA is just a filthy cesspool.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Svend
08/16/2016 at 05:00

I don’t really know if that’s a good or bad thing to be honest. My best friend has to get his car fixed but the enviromental agency in Germany hasn’t approved any fixes for the 1.6 tdi yet. He probably wouldn’t get his fixed if it wasn’t mandatory.

Svend > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 05:07

If it will affect the owner in any adverse way, why should the owner be penalised? I can’t see it being a fix that will be withdrawn any time soon (once they find one), so if the next owner wants it done, it’s up to them.

Cé hé sin > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 05:21

VW are going to use particulate filters with petrol engines too.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > Cé hé sin
08/16/2016 at 05:27

About time to be honest. It’ll probably a costly extra.

TheHondaBro > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 05:31

Alright, well you better come back for it. We’re going to be auctioned off, I’d like the place to be as clean as possible.

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > TheHondaBro
08/16/2016 at 05:51

It has cleaned up LA, too. The difference between even 10 and 20 years ago is quite dramatic. It hasn't changed as much recently and the huge population increases are pushing it backward at this point, but the progress has still been quite dramatic.

TheHondaBro > Eric @ opposite-lock.com
08/16/2016 at 05:58

My last statement still stands.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > TheHondaBro
08/16/2016 at 06:08

Does that mean I have to wear my fancy sunday suit?

Kinja'd!!!

bhtooefr > CRider
08/16/2016 at 06:45

VW used the particulate filters, just not the urea injection systems.

And, even on the cars with urea injection, they were cheating too.

Another problem is, these systems are rather costly to repair when they fail, and they’re not the most reliable of technologies, either. So, they often get bypassed when they fail.

bhtooefr > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 07:15

The EU’s regulatory framework is too lax in general, really, because it (until Euro 6c, starting to take effect next year) uses the NEDC for fuel economy and emissions testing, and they allow some outright cheating on the NEDC.

The NEDC is a very, very gentle cycle, because Europe has a lot of extremely slow cars, that when the NEDC was designed, would have been driven flat out to just meet the test cycle... when you can barely breathe on the throttle in something modern. As far as the cheating... taping over seams, disabling (mandatory) daytime running lights, overinflating tires (although not above max sidewall, VW was caught doing that), running thinner oil than specified (although not cutting your oil with diesel fuel, VW was caught doing that too), and then the most ridiculous one... so, the regulations require that you run the rolldown test (which is used to set up a lot of the dynamometer parameters) both ways, with a maximum slope of, IIRC, 1.5 degrees, and then average the result of both directions, to remove the uphill vs. downhill error, as well as wind. However, while they said you had to go opposite directions, they didn’t say it had to be on the same surface... so there are test tracks in Europe that are 1.5 degrees downhill both ways. So you average going downhill both ways. Yes. Oh, and then there’s things (this one’s been toned down after Mercedes getting caught doing it at, like, 20 C) like, a rule saying that if your emissions controls would be damaged by cold temperatures, you can just... shut them off.

Basically, European automakers are apparently all run by Smokey Yunick.

Now, they did regulate both CO2 fairly tightly, and particulate mass, without paying as much attention to NOx - they both have a much more lax standard than the US, and then the aforementioned legal cheating. But, even as the NOx standard has gotten almost twice as strict as Euro 4, NOx emissions in the real world haven’t gone down at all, thanks to cheating.

Euro 6c starts adding WLTP, a more aggressive test cycle that’s also adaptable to multiple types of vehicles and their usage cycles (which, the automakers were lobbying for that cheating to be legal in it, too... right as Dieselgate broke. Yeah), RDE (which consists of strapping a portable emissions testing device to the back of the car under test, and going for an actual drive), and particulate number regulation.

Now, the diesels will be hit hard on the NOx end of things, but then there’s these downsize and turbocharge gassers that are all the rage, and they’re all cheating in a way, too, but on CO2 (read: fuel consumption) more than anything else.

They’re dependent on the gentle NEDC to work, and the lack of particulate number regulation. Adding WLTP and RDE will expose their terrible real-world fuel efficiency. (However, as I understand, WLTP and RDE are more of a “we’re doing these tests, collecting data, but not regulating the results at this time” thing. Once regulations are actually constructed around them, though...) Adding particulate number regulation will increase their emissions compliance costs, as gasoline particulate filters are required, though, and that’s already starting next year.

tl;dr: Europe allows too much cheating, they’re fixing this gradually, and downsize and turbocharge is going to die.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > bhtooefr
08/16/2016 at 07:23

That sums it up really well. I’m not too sure if too much will change regarding the demand of diesel engines here and lobbyism of German and French automakers.

bhtooefr > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 07:37

Toyota and Mazda are both in good positions to capitalize, though, if the lobbying isn’t successful - Toyota’s got a bunch of port injected gassers that are highly efficient as far as gassers go, and have hybrid systems to keep them at their most efficient points. Mazda’s got direct injection, which does give them an emissions penalty as far as particulates, but it’s not forced induction, so at least they’re not enrichening under boost, and they have a neat wide authority variable valve timing system that allows them to reduce pumping losses (and therefore maintain efficiency) at partial load by retarding the intake cam massively.

The Dummy Gummy > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 07:48

Parts of Europe have focused on the limit http://gizmodo.com/smog-is-forcin…

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > bhtooefr
08/16/2016 at 07:49

They do have an advantage but they sell in rather small numbers here in Europe. I think that automakers will react quicker with gasoline engines because they know that diesel engines are kinda like a dead end. A German automotive magazine, Auto Motor und Sport, compared popular cars with diesel engines and included a gasoline direct injected and turbo powered car. That car was the cleanest of the bunch.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > The Dummy Gummy
08/16/2016 at 07:51

They did push through a ban, although I have no idea if it’s already in effect or not.

The Dummy Gummy > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 07:57

Ok. It sounded like you didn’t know

EU set their focus too much on co2 and diesel particles but not on nox, at least that’s what I’ve noticed over the years.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > The Dummy Gummy
08/16/2016 at 08:03

I’m not from Paris nor am I from France, so yeah, I don’t know. From what I’ve heard the city of Paris has recent plans to ban cars older than 19 years or something.

bhtooefr > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 08:07

Measured how, though?

Often, from European (including UK) publications, what they call “emissions” is NEDC CO2 figures - even when they say “it doesn’t get what’s claimed” on fuel consumption, they still cite the CO2 figure, even though it’s directly related to the fuel consumption. (Conversely, here in the US, while fuel consumption is considered in calling a car “low emissions”, the emphasis is on meeting EPA/California emissions standards (that don’t consider CO2 at all) early.)

I’d be impressed if they took a PEMS on the road, or if they ran their own (not NEDC, more aggressive) test cycle.

Leon711 > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 08:22

The Internet is a series of tubes, just saying.

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > bhtooefr
08/16/2016 at 08:26

This time they used what they call “RDE”, real driving emissions with a portable emissions measurements system. Those tests were done on the road.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > CRider
08/16/2016 at 08:35

That’s not smog, that’s the “Marine layer”...

Former OC county resident, go Warriors.

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem
08/16/2016 at 13:04

good thing i own a straigh pipe diesel truck

FSI - alcohol enthusiast with a car problem > TheD0k_2many toys 2little time
08/16/2016 at 13:07

At least that’s were diesel engines make (more) sense.

Nauraushaun > CRider
08/16/2016 at 18:26

I was more thinking about silly bumper regulations and headlights and shit like that. But maybe you’re onto something with the smog...